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Big Bang Bar
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greg_888
Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: BBB INFO ON THE CHAT ROOM TONIGHT???? |
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l found this on RPG
is IPB/ Kim, Gene, Kerry involved in this?
and if so why?
or is this just another bagging session!!!
from the none believers.... and if you havn't seen RGP.... guess who
Greg
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Greg
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Swann
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 108
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:45 am Post subject: |
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well, as you might have noticed, it's Pinlicious *) that published it on RGP. I wouldn't care so much about it, posts from him aren't that well thought of...
... and/or it could be someone on this forum that was thinking about sharing some information on the chat, and this has come to his attention...
* Here in Sweden the Pinball-community sees him as an bad element that doesn't really help and promote Pinball but rather does the opposite. Sure, I do know that he has done and is doing good things (Pinbrawl), but overall what it's noticeable is his RGP. attitude-problems. But this isn't really the right forum to go into this topic 
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BBB #79 has arrived here in Stockholm, Sweden! |
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pinball-sales
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:01 am Post subject: BBB Chat |
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It was Bearcave hidding behind a fake ID.
Slamming BBB and all involved including all the faults they believe have been made.
Playfields being touched up with magic markers, Blackline screens out of register etc.
I am sure any problems have been fixed. |
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CraigC
Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: Re: BBB INFO ON THE CHAT ROOM TONIGHT???? |
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smells like a hoax.
Unless things are posted and can be backed up it's nothing to worry about.
-c
| greg_888 wrote: | l found this on RPG
is IPB/ Kim, Gene, Kerry involved in this?
and if so why?
or is this just another bagging session!!!
from the none believers.... and if you havn't seen RGP.... guess who
Greg |
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BigBangJoe
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 134
Location: Gent, Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:58 am Post subject: Re: BBB Chat |
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| pinball-sales wrote: |
Playfields being touched up with magic markers, Blackline screens out of register etc.
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Let's not forget that someone went to IPB to have a very close look at the playfields, and was impressed with the quality.
I'm pretty sure that he would've seen magic marker touch ups   |
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nitrodude
Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:31 am Post subject: |
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It's garbage Bearcave would never do aneything like that.
If you come accross aneything funny mabe you should post it so we can all have some fun. We could create a special section just for garbage to give us something to do inbetween pingasems |
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PINBALL WITCH
Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
Let me start by saying I had a phone call this morning saying that someone was bad mouthing the BBB project.
Since I wasn't on the chat group last nite I don't have all the details nor do I know for sure who was posting.
I am still of the opinion that what happened between Bearcave and IPB/PMI needs to stay confidential so I will not comment on that.
I will say that it is amusing that problems that have come up and were taken care of by the project managers are now being made an issue of.
We did find that the wrong rivet and been sent to the assemblers and we had to decide whether to have the corrections made by the assembler or in house.
The decision was made to correct the problem in house and I believe that it has been taken care of.
As for the playfields when Bob S. saw them ( the 3 bc had) and gave his "summary" he stated that they were fine. Bob feel free to jump in if I have misquoted you. It's just crazy that now all of the sudden all of this stuff is crap.
The fact that Gene is selling rental properties was also brought up.
This is due to the fact that being an independent landlord is no longer profitable in the city of Bloomington (example: landlords are now being charged a $35.00 fee if you open the ground (dig a hole) on your property, and you need a license to do so which then has to be inspected) so Mom & Gene had decide to start selling off properties before it gets worse. The rental companies are building apartment complex and we can no longer compete. That’s it.
It seems pretty silly that I have to justify my parents choice to no longer own rental properties on a forum for a pinball machine. No offense.
It was brought up again about PMI being a dummy corporation.
This has been discussed before and nothing has changed.
The thought was that without the BC guys this project would die.
Ha-ha not a chance.!!!!!!! (I had to be childish just once) With the addition of Kerry and Jeff I would bet that it burned a number of people up and that may be a reason to try to stir up issues and concerns that are old news.
If this site is being hacked I would advise you to stop all of this silliness, it was your choice to leave and our choice to continue without you. GET OVER IT. 
I’m not sure what else has been said so if you have questions feel free to call or post them and I will check back thru the day and try to answer them.
kim |
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bayareaamusements
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: Chat Session |
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I was on that Chat session, and didn't know who it was that was just ranting on and on, and finally the Chat room guy posted the IP address and that IP address resolved to BC, so I can only assume that there are some 'letting go' issues that have not been resolve.
I think Kerry and Kim are best at addressing any issues as they have on this board but also I think that problems once found get addressed in most cases. Personally from what I saw by being fortunate to help with the project, the scope and scale and the amount of work and effort that is being put into this project really impressed me. I personally will be very happy with the game, and in terms of valuation, I don't expect that many others can pull this off for a $4.5K price, which is a bargain, and will become a collector item.
rick |
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Swann
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 108
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I just read  a short version of what happened on the chat on RGP. and well it doesn't really seems like any serious issues at all. Sure if anything of it is true maybe some "extreme" collectors might be worried about for example different rev. on CPU-boards and such.
Since it's going on location here, I'm not really worried at all in regards to this, am sure we will recieve a playable game 
 What does worries me a tiny bit though is how it's given an image of problems for Gene on two fronts (business and the BBB-project) and well, sure BBB will be made, but I do hope that it will not affect Gene's health  . He's worth all the respect with running this project for the Pinball-community and shouldn't need to work himself up too much over all issues.
I wish him all the best with everything and do hope that he puts his health ahead of the project and his business! 
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BBB #79 has arrived here in Stockholm, Sweden! |
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BBB93
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| PINBALL WITCH wrote: | As for the playfields when Bob S. saw them ( the 3 bc had) and gave his "summary" he stated that they were fine. Bob feel free to jump in if I have misquoted you. It's just crazy that now all of the sudden all of this stuff is crap.
kim |
No, you have not mis-quoted me. As Kim says, I did do a review of 3 playfeilds and 1 set of side art. I have dug up the text from that old post and pasted it below. It was long then and is still long. The 3 playfeilds I saw were the ones that were being sent to Playfeild Renovations to be clearcoated. So one might assume that they were hand picked samples. But if the examples I saw were representative of the entire lot, I feel safe in saying my review was/is accurate.
Bob Stemmler BBB#93
Below is the copy from my original post from Mid June:
First off, let me just say thank you to Bob and Steve for the invitation to come by their home and for the opportunity to get a sneak peek at the cabinet decals and the prototype playfields. They were very generous with their time, I went to Collinsville right after work, and despite a MapQuest error arrived right at 5:30. Next thing I knew it was after 8:00, I had told my wife I would be home by 7:00 so she could go to a music rehearsal at our church… good thing I have a very understanding better half. I could have spent all night talking with them about all things BBB. My head spins just hearing about just a few of the challenges they have faced during this project.
Needless to say, when I received an invitation to come by and take a look at the decals and prototype playfield samples, I jumped at the chance. Bob and Steve knew I was local and I think they were very excited to show off the samples they have received. From a few of my previous posts, they were aware that I work in the graphic arts industry and that I might be able to provide an independent review of the print quality and the results they were able to achieve by working with their print suppliers.
Also, just to get this out. I am not affiliated with PMI, IPB or BC in anyway, except by geography. I have met Bob and Steve only a couple of times in the past, usually by seeing them at local pinball events, auctions and such. So what I say here is based only on my observation of the samples I saw. This is uncensored, uneditied and has not even been proofed, meaning it is likely riddled with gramatical errors. I have also tried my best to not make any misrepresentations, but if I have, they are entirely my fault.
Just as a little background, I work at a large high quality full color lithographic printing company. For the 23 years I have spent in the industry, I spend a large portion of my time working with customers, designers and artists helping them evaluate, adjust and correct the color and quality of their printed pieces and advising them on ways to fine tune the process in an effort to help them achieve the desired results. I only tell you this because I want to put into context what I report below. Normally when working with a designer or artist, during the process, we measure our success and quality against a known and approved color standard. This approved color standard can be in the form of a color proof, or it could be an original painting/rendering, a photograph, a product sample, an ink swatch or even a previously printed sample, sometimes printed by us, sometimes done by a competitor.
I know from previous forum discussions that all of the BBB artwork is reproduced using Pantone spot colors, so I made sure I brought my Pantone Color Guide book with me, so when I was looking at the colors, I could see how well the colors matched the Pantone Guide color swatches. I was hoping for some miracle where I would find that Gene’s machine was in Collinsville and that I would get to play….um… I mean…. compare the colors of an original machine to the colors of the new decals and playfields. Unfortunately, Gene’s machine was not in Collinsville. Pantone colors have an advantage over what we call 4-color process printing, in that each individual color is specifically formulated to match a standard color swatch. This fact allowed me to use my pantone color guide to compare each color on the decals and on the playfeild to see how closely they matched.
When I first got there, they had some cut samples of the cabinet sides, heads and coin door decals rolled up on the living room table. When they unrolled the right side cabinet decal my jaw must have hit the floor. My first impression was that it is just knock-your-shoes-off gorgeous. The colors were very bright and vibrant. The colors all had good saturation (ink film densisty), the colors look very uniform and consistant.
The registration target marks were still on the sheet, so I was able to clearly see how much registration error was present. On the one set of samples that was available to me the registration looked very good. There was some slight misalignment of the targets, but I mean slight. For a silk screen process, I would rate the registration on this set of decals to be more than acceptable. If their printer held this throughout the run, I think we will all be very happy.
Then we got into some conversation about the challenges of color matching and all of the variables that are present and inherent to the process. Bob and Steve are very conscience of the goal of being as faithful to the original as much as possible. But here is where a few of the variables start to creep in. When working with the printer to perfect the color, they had 2 points of reference. The first of course was Gene’s machine, one of only a handfull of existing Capcom prototype BBBs. The second reference point was the original Capcom drawings and BOM where the PANTONE spot colors were specified by the design team.
The Bear Cave guys have learned a lot about the printing process from their previous experience with the TAF and KISS playfields. So they asked their printer to provide ink “drawdowns” of each color for review and approval prior to printing the actual production run. This was smart thinking on the BC guys part. A ink drawdown is where a printer will mix and formulate the ink per the pantone standards guide, they will then print a test swatch of that color onto the substraight specified. In the case of the PMI BBB, the substraight is a type of sysnthetic vinyl, or polystryrene, or polyethelyne(???) with an adhesive backing. In the case of the proto Capcom BBB, the substraight was the plywood cabinet. These two surfaces and the print process for each are very different. When PMI got the ink drawdowns from the printer they found that the printer had indeed did a good job of matching the colors perfectly to the Pantone color guide book. They then compared the drawdowns to Gene’s machine, they found that the colors in general, especially the purple background, looked brighter and in general more vibrant than they did on Gene’s machine. They also found that Gene’s machine had some color fading, especially in the reds. I was told that Gene’s machine had spent much of its early life on location somewhere in California. So the delima becomes, what to use as the standard for color matching? Do you use Gene’s 7 – 8 year old machine that has had some fading of the colors and was printed onto a plywood base, or do you use the pantone colors as a guide as they were specified by the design team at Capcom?
Well, in my opinion, Bob and Steve made some good decisions and compromises in an effort to find that happy medium.
Lets start with the predominant color on BBB, the dark purple background, specified by the design team as PMS 267. On Gene’s machine, the purple background color prooved to be much darker than Pantone 267. The reasons for this could be many, but I would speculate that it has a lot to do with the fact that it was printed onto plywood. Plywood is a pourous material where ink will soak in a bit, sort of like a sponge. When ink soaks into a material, it looses some of its brightness and saturation of color. Also when you print onto plywood, the material itself is darker and will therefore influence the way colors printed on top of it are perceived. So Bob and Steve worked with the printer to darken the purple and to try to achieve the look of an original BBB. The color they ended up with is more akin to Pantone 268, and maybe even slightly darker than that. I think this is a good thing, because I think that we all have the perception, when we see a BBB of this dark purple beauty with these other brighter colors popping off that darker background. I think this was a good choice of color and looked great, but keep in mind I did not have an original Capcom BBB sitting there to compare it to.
The next color is the darker of the 2 blues, Pantone 3015. Bob and Steve found the drawdown the printer furnished to also be quite a bit brighter than the blue on Gene’s cabinet. So they made some adjustment, but to a lesser extent, to the color of the blue to more closley match Gene’s machine.
From here on out, it gets a lot more straight forward:
The lighter of the 2 blues is Pantone 312, I found this color on the decals to be almost a dead-on match to the color in the Pantone book. I also found the same to be true for The Pantone Yellow. Pantone 032 Red and the Pantone 802 Flourescent Green. Then there is the black, well black is black and here there was no exception. The black had good density and coverage. On artwork such as this, the black serves as an outline for many of the details and characters shown in the art and serves as a coverup between adjacent colors, what we call “trapping” in the business. The goal with the black is to run sufficiect density so the underlying colors do not show through. They accomplished this goal just fine.
Then there is the clear U.V. coating that is applied over all of the colors. Contrary to some beliefs, a U.V. coating does not provide a high level of protection from UV rays. A U.V. coating is cured (dried) using UV light energy as a catalyst. So your cabinet art will not be impervious to sunlight. Bob and Steve worked with the printer to formulate a coating that would have the right level of gloss, trying to match the gloss that would be found on an original sceened cabinet. Not too glossy and shiney and not too dull. They used a satin or semi-gloss coating and I think they did a very nice job of achieving the correct level of gloss.
So having said all I have above, Bob and Steve did tell me that despite all their efforts, that in general, the colors on the PMI BBB look a little brighter, a little more saturated and cleaner than they do on Gene’s machine. Again, we did not have an original BBB sitting there to make a comparison, so I really cannot comment about how much brighter and cleaner the colors are on the new decals. I can only tell you how they look when using the pantone color guide as a standard and with the knowledge that the original Capcom design team specified these colors as what was intended for the art reproduction. Sitting there looking at the printed samples, in my opinion, BBB has some the coolest artwork in all of pinball, and that the artwork and print quality are up to, and in some ways, may even exceed the printing on the Capcom games. But are also in some ways different than the original Capcom version.
Now onto the Playfields….
They had 3 different payfield samples for me to look at. All of them looked virtually identicle in color, hue, saturation and register. They did not have any of the rejects there, so I am unable to comment on any of the issues that may have caused them to reject 6 from the first run of 50. But I am comforted by the fact that they are taking the time to personally inspect each playfield and that they are willing to reject any that they see ass less than acceptable. They did tell me that because of their experince with the TAF and KISS runs, that they felt much better prepared to deal with the printer and were better able to anticipate potential issues. I got the impression, that all of the playfields they have accepted thus far would have been rated as “firsts” if they were part of the TAF run.
The 3 samples they had were all Prototype playfields. They explained that the difference between a prototype playfield and a production playfield will be a difference in the color of one insert. The large round insert that is in the middle of the pop bumpers will be clear on the prototypes, as it is on Gene’s machine, and that insert will be yellow on the production run, as it is specified in the final bill of materials. (I hope I got that right?)
As I think has been discussed here before, the playfields are printed using 13 different colors!!! That is a lot of colors and a lot of expense that you just don’t see very often. In my 23 years in the business, I can only think of 1 printing job I have been involved with where we used more than 13 colors. On that job we printed 22 pantone colors, this was done for an outdoor furniture manufaturer who wanted to accurately show the colors of finished available to the consumer. But I digress…
I understand that the cabinet decals are being printed at one printer and that Churchhill handles the playfields, cutting and screening. Having two different printers, just means that you have doubled or tripled the amount of communcations that need to take place to try to get the guy who prints second, to adjust and match what the guy who prints first did. I don’t even want to think about all of the time and effort that had to go into that process…
For the playfield, the first color that is printed is the white. The white goes under all of the other colors, and also shows through as part of the artwork and lettereing wherever the other colors have hold-outs or reverses.
Then on top of the white, the other 12 colors are printed. They printed the same 7 colors, plus 2 yellows, 2 oranges and 3rd blue…. I think, my notes get a little sketchy here.
First off, my initial impression of the playfields is that the artwork is just stunning, the colors are crisp and bright, the 3 samples when looked at side by side showed little if any variation and overall looked very good.
The 267 purple on the playfield was adjusted to a darker version, again in an effort to more closely match the color found on the Gene’s game, but it does not exactly match the color of the purple used by the decal printer, very close, but not exact. I may be getting a bit nit-picky here, but that’s what I do. My only other complaint about the purple would be a slight, “graining” appearance at the lower end of the playlield. If you look very closely, you can just began to see a hint of the plywood grain from the wood and how it effected how the purple ink lays on the surface. But again, I am being very nit-picky here, and I suspect it will not ever be seen when in the game.
All of the other colors seem to be a very close match to the pantone color swatch standards. The registration of the colors seems to have hit a very close tolerance and looks to be completely acceptable in every way. If I were to nit-pick a bit more, I would have to point out that some of the black rings around the inserts do not fit exactly. They are not out of register, it is just that the inside diameter of the black ring is larger than the diameter of the plastic insert. Not by a lot, but if you look closely, you would normally see the black ring trap on top of, and slightly overlap onto the plastic insert. In almost everycase, they do just that and look great. But there seems to be 3 or 4 inserts where the black ring just seems slightly too large. These inserts are fortunately toward the top of the game in the orbit area. I think these will mostly be hidden when the top of the playfield is populated with the ramps, habitrails and plastics.
The clear coat on the playfields has to be the best finish I have seen on a production playfield. They do indeed appear to have been double coated. The gloss is very good and very uniform. I did not find any dirt or bubbles or “orange peel” effect in the finish at all. Very nice finish. When you view the finish from a shallow angle and look to see if there is any sign of edges or uneveness with the inserts, I could detect nothing. The inserts appear to be perfectly level with the surface with no edges showing at all.
I think in a home use enviroment, these playfields will last probably forever. I did find that there will not be any mylar applied to the games as we receive them. I don’t think that any of the proto games had mylar factory applied either. I think there has already been some discussion on the forum about things that can be done to add protectors and such to high wear areas, and I know I will be taking precations as needed.
Well, I think I have rambled on more than long enough. It was really a pleasure to see Bob and Steve and to get a look at what they have accomplished. I am very confident that with their energy and passion for the project we are all going to have a great looking game in our homes soon. Than you Gene, Georgianna, Kim, Steve, Bob and others who have devoted so much time and effort into making this the best thay possible can. An if you have stuck with me this far, thanks to everyone for supporting this project.
END OF TEXT FROM JUNE 2005 POST
Bob Stemmler
Belly-up To The Big Bang Bar # 93
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Belly-Up To The Big Bang Bar ©
Last edited by BBB93 on Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ringtail
Joined: 05 Aug 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:23 am Post subject: |
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At the end of the day this forum was designed so we could read updates and communicate with those that are directly involved with the project. The fact that info is leaking from it is to be expected and really dosen't matter a damn. We still have a closed forum where we can avoid the idiots that have nothing better to do than rant and rave over nothing and engage in sensible discussion on the game and the process at hand.
I've read the chat summary as well and it sounds like a bunch of children poking at a hornets nest trying to stir it up. Why? maybe they're jealous, maybe they're just out to cause trouble for the heck of it, maybe they're trying to frighten off investors so they can buy the machines after the run is completed. Regardless of this the only people you should listen too are the ones on this forum. We know we have the expertise and the dedication here and we sure as hell know that the machine is well on it's way to completion, ignore the children and don't give them any more ammo in their mud slinging mission 
To those that say we follow with blind faith... when have the blind ever had pingasms over cabinet pictures? ;P
Have a fun evening guys and remember, Don't feed the trolls
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#69 It had to go to Holland really  |
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pmwolf3
Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 67
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:53 am Post subject: |
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In the general scheme of things, it's pointless. It's like arguing politics with someone set in their beliefs...you're not going to change their mind, and they aren't going to change yours. It's an exercise in frustration.
Those that are sure the project will fail, will continue to think so, and stuff like this will validate their beliefs...even if the info is shaky at best. (Conversely, those of us that are sure the project will be fine, will ALSO continue to believe so, and info like this will be discarded, and ultimately ignored).
Pete |
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PINBALL WITCH
Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Bob,
Thanks for the post it helped me to remember a few points that I had forgotten.
To all of you thank-you for your support. It seems there is quite a bit of behind the scenes goofin going on.
Koz - Bearcave in the same camp, that put a smile on my face, maybe hell is freezing over. We've had a definite tempature drop in Bloomington recently (really)
We are working on a surprise for you all so stay tuned.
kim |
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BigBangJoe
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 134
Location: Gent, Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| PINBALL WITCH wrote: | It seems pretty silly that I have to justify my parents choice to no longer own rental properties on a forum for a pinball machine. No offense.
kim |
We really didn't ask for any justification but thanks for it anyway. You can do with your property whatever you want, it's none of our business.
Maybe you shouldn't try to defend yourself all the time. You cannot please everyone all the time, so don't try it. If you concentrate on the project itself (and give us regular updates (    )), then everyone of us should be happy. I can easily imagine that the actual cost of the 186 BBB's is more than the 4500 dollars apiece you asked for them, or the profit will be minimal to say the least. That means we are getting a real bargain (a BBB at less than the cost to build it!), so we just have to accept delays even if they are quite long. If Stern would have remade BBB, would it be delivered on time? Probably yes, but would the quality be the same or would they just print the playfield with their standard 4-color (or whatever) printing technique? Now that's another question! If anyone else would have the rights for BBB and tried to remake it, would they do it faster? Probably not as they would have encountered the exact same problems as you did. Would they be able to sell it cheaper? Certainly not if they would pay for lots of people working full-time on it!
My point is that I'm glad that *someone* is making BBB for me while some people (generally speaking, not pointing any fingers) seem to demand all kinds of extra info and clarifications and proof, while that really is IPB-internal stuff. If you ask any company/factory about details of how exactly their products are made or what the financial situation is, they will reply with some standard letter saying "Thank you for your interest in our company, but this is none of your business so piss off". I don't see why you would have to react to each and every rumour or comment about IPB/BBB. But if reacting to it makes you feel better, then be my guest
That doesn't mean that I'm happy with *everything* that you do, but in general, I think you're doing a great job.
Hmmm this post turns out to be longer than planned... oh well |
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PINBALL WITCH
Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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You're right I don't need to justify the decisions that are made that don't concern the BBB.
The problems with rumors is that it upsets the people that have purchased the the games and it's not fair to all of you to be left in the dark. That is why I explain, if I don't someone will ask. I have enough respect for you as a group that I don't like to leave you hanging.
kim |
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